Issues over Earthcaches in Scotland
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Issues over Earthcaches in Scotland

 
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Deceangi
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:33 pm    Post subject: Issues over Earthcaches in Scotland Reply with quote

In another topic, it's been raised that due to US based GSA Employees and US based EC Reviewers not being up to speed on Scottish access laws. This is causing some issues.

Currently there is no UK based EC Reviewer after the resignation of geoawareUK.

However currently a replacement geoawareUK is being sourced, this will take a few months to process the suitable candidate and also train up this person as a EC Reviewer. Once this person is up to speed, either Carol-Alba or myself, will provide support over the Scottish Access laws. Whilst the person settles in as the new UK EC Reviewer.

So please bare with us, and have patience. Earthcaches in the UK will have a UK based Reviewer, who will be in a position to better understand Access issues in Scotland.

Deci
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Firth of Forth
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Issues over Earthcaches in Scotland Reply with quote

Deceangi wrote:
In another topic, it's been raised that due to US based GSA Employees and US based EC Reviewers not being up to speed on Scottish access laws. This is causing some issues.

Currently there is no UK based EC Reviewer after the resignation of geoawareUK.

However currently a replacement geoawareUK is being sourced, this will take a few months to process the suitable candidate and also train up this person as a EC Reviewer. Once this person is up to speed, either Carol-Alba or myself, will provide support over the Scottish Access laws. Whilst the person settles in as the new UK EC Reviewer.

So please bare with us, and have patience. Earthcaches in the UK will have a UK based Reviewer, who will be in a position to better understand Access issues in Scotland.

Deci


That's very good news - thanks. The more the new earthcache reviewer understands the differences across the border, the better, as these are fairly significant.
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Jack Aubrey
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Decci. That is good to hear.

Warning!! The rest of this post is an extraordinarily tedious legal argument which may cause your teeth to fall out from sheer grinding boredom.

There is a particular legal issue about seeking permission for an earthcache when land where an earthcache might be "placed" is owned or managed by a public body (such as a national organisation or local authority).

The Scotland Act not only set up the Parliament, it is in effect, a written constitution for Scotland. As one aspect of this, under the terms of the Act, all "public authorities" (as defined in the Act) can only do things which the law specifically empowers them to do and they are prohibited from acting without lawful power, subject to the oversight of the Supreme Courts of Scotland. (The Act also incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into Scots law as a further context within which public authorities' actings are controlled and subject to Court oversight. The impact of the Cadder judgement on criminal justice procedure is an example of how significant this can be.)

Since setting an earthcache does not involve actually leaving anything or otherwise interfering with the land on which the earthcache resides, the question arises what permission is being sought? In effect, it is permission for others to access the land to visit the site of the geological phenomenon concerned. Under the law as it affects access, a public authority cannot withhold such permission (except where special over-riding circumstances and actions determined by other legal powers apply - such as controls imposed during an outbreak of foot and mouth). Since granting permission implies the power to withold it, granting such permission would in principle be an "unlawful" action (ie one not specifically and positively provided for in law). In other words, by asking a public authority for permission to "place" an earthcache one could be asking the authority to act outside its legal powers.

In case this looks anything like the case made elsewhere in these forums for free placement of caches anywhere without permission, I should say that I am NOT arguing for that. It seems to me entirely clear that if you are going to leave anything you need permission. This argument is solely about earthcaches where nothing physical is left at the site and where the land in question is owned or managed by a public authority within the meaning of the Scotland Act.

And, as that man used to say on the wireless: "If you have been, thanks for listening". Laughing
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Drumin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Aubrey wrote:
Warning!! The rest of this post is an extraordinarily tedious legal argument which may cause your teeth to fall out from sheer grinding boredom.


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HighlandNick
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only agree with my learned colleague Jack Aubrey.

Last year I submitted an Earthcache for publication and ran into this "permissions" argument with the reviewer (who has since stepped down).
I have submitted it again along with a further rationale to the current reviewers (in the US) but am not holding my breath.

In my case, the two access routes to the proposed earthcache are clearly signposted by the relevant authorities (to the actual geological feature!) - therefore explicitly inviting walkers to visit the feature - which is precisely what an Earthcache is doing.

In this case also, there are already two traditional caches on the same site which have written permission.

On principle, I have no intention of asking for permission to merely visit such a signed feature which is clearly there for the public to enjoy.
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drifter
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that we are playing and American game with American rules and that will cause problems here in Scotland. I think the problem lies with Groundspeak who wish to maintain control in an activity which is worldwide. I think they will have to respect the cultures of different countries and instruct their reviewers accordingly.
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Big Wolf
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
It seems to me that we are playing and American game with American rules and that will cause problems here in Scotland. I think the problem lies with Groundspeak who wish to maintain control in an activity which is worldwide. I think they will have to respect the cultures of different countries and instruct their reviewers accordingly.


Geocaching has developed into a global game played with global rules which have been developed to ensure that problems don't arise that could jeopardise the good name that Geocaching currently enjoys.

Throughout the world there are already established differences on where caches can and cannot be placed and this is supported by having local review teams. However as Deci has already explained, this has not been the case in the UK recently for Earchcaches and we need to have patience until we can again have a UK based Reviewer, who will be in a position to better understand access issues here in Scotland. Once a UK reviewer is again in place for Earthcaches then the status quo is expected to return.
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Firth of Forth
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Wolf wrote:
drifter wrote:
It seems to me that we are playing and American game with American rules and that will cause problems here in Scotland. I think the problem lies with Groundspeak who wish to maintain control in an activity which is worldwide. I think they will have to respect the cultures of different countries and instruct their reviewers accordingly.


Geocaching has developed into a global game played with global rules which have been developed to ensure that problems don't arise that could jeopardise the good name that Geocaching currently enjoys.

Throughout the world there are already established differences on where caches can and cannot be placed and this is supported by having local review teams. However as Deci has already explained, this has not been the case in the UK recently for Earchcaches and we need to have patience until we can again have a UK based Reviewer, who will be in a position to better understand access issues here in Scotland. Once a UK reviewer is again in place for Earthcaches then the status quo is expected to return.


Agree with most of that BW, except that, even before, the particular differences North of the border (described by Jack) were not taken into account. Hopefully a new reviewer will be able to do so.
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HighlandNick
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just had my new Earthcache published and did not have to get explicit permission to visit this site. (See earlier post)
I had originally given up due to the onerous requests from the (now retired / resigned) UK reviewer.

I have to say (as a personal statement) that dealing with the temporary US reviewer was a much more pleasant experience. Gone were the questions about the accuracy of my geological statements and the demands for landowners permission to visit. This site is an SSSI but I still believe that the Access legislation doesn't preclude our fundamental rights to visit even SSSI's responsibly.

I did make a lengthy statement about Scots access laws in the "Note to reviewer" when setting up the cache. This has been removed, along with all the other notes and correspondence, as is normal, when
submitting a cache for approval. Perhaps I should have kept a copy.....

It was possibly made a little easier for me in that there are already some traditional(boxed) caches on the same site (which do have explicit permission from SNH) and that the local and regional council have signposts directing the public to visit this particular geological feature. However, I still believe that even this precedent should not make a difference for earthcaches.

One thing to note is that you need to attribute the source of your geological info. (I used Wikipedia and edited it to make it easier to understand!)

I hope that this is a significant improvement in the understanding of Scottish access laws - especially when NOT placing an actual container.
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Haggis Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HighlandNick wrote:

I did make a lengthy statement about Scots access laws in the "Note to reviewer" when setting up the cache. This has been removed, along with all the other notes and correspondence, as is normal, when
submitting a cache for approval. Perhaps I should have kept a copy.....

Is it possible for reviewers to retrieve the log and send you the content of it? I know Groundspeak can view archived logs.
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Deceangi
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haggis Hunter wrote:
HighlandNick wrote:

I did make a lengthy statement about Scots access laws in the "Note to reviewer" when setting up the cache. This has been removed, along with all the other notes and correspondence, as is normal, when
submitting a cache for approval. Perhaps I should have kept a copy.....

Is it possible for reviewers to retrieve the log and send you the content of it? I know Groundspeak can view archived logs.


Yes I can retrieve the post for Nick if he so wishes.

Deci
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