Is permission really required form landowners in Scotland?
Geo- for grown-ups
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
  GamesGames   

Refi

Bookmark this site!
Is permission really required form landowners in Scotland?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Geocaching, more or less
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Is permission really required form landowners in Scotland? Reply with quote

It seems to me that permission for placing a cache in Scotland is covered in the Scottish Access Code which allows responsible access to most areas of Scotland. There are obvious exceptions but I would suggest that for all "wild land" in Scotland no permission is necessary. From another section is this site is the quote from SNH which would seem to cover this topic.

"I can confirm therefore that SNH has no concerns at all over the activity and I would very much doubt that you need to contact any land owners."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Haggis Hunter
Founder member


Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 2487
Location: The building site formally known as Edinburgh!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Access to land and leaving a container that landowners may look upon as rubbish are two completely different things.
I've not looked at the Scottish Access Code for a while, but I am pretty sure that it does state somewhere that you should leave nothing behind.
_________________
Let me know if I say anything that offends you
I might want to offend you again later Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the rubbish/litter idea, although it is used by opponents of Geocaching, is not relevant since all caches should be hidden from view. If caches are left in full view then I would agree with our critics and those sort of caches should be eliminated. I think the important words in the code are that people should act responsibly and not leave litter.
There is also the danger that by not exercising our rights under the code we will lose those rights.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drumin
Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Moray

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately in this forum we do not have a can of worms emoticon!

I will repeat a post I made in Geofrees when SOAC was being discussed - thread here http://geofrees.org/Forum/index.php?topic=1444.0

"I know that the majority of caches placed on my employers and previous clients land are there without permission. In general this is not an issue as I cache and I check their locations to ensure they do not interfere with land management operations or natural heritage interests. I may be the exception as I "play the game". If they did conflict I would simply send a PM to the cache setter asking for an amendment and probably suggest changes to the cache page text or an alternative location.

There are instances where a poorly placed cache could cause problems for the land manager/owner and/or damage natural heritage interests. (and that could expose the cache setter to legal process or at least a wee visit and talking to from the local Police wildlife crime officer - yes really!)

SOAC is a great thing but I would ask if it is really "responsible" to place a cache if you do not know the implications to someones business of doing so? Let's not forget that access is taken to a working landscape which has to earn an income for the owner in many (though not all) cases.

Personally, I would agree that placing caches in 99% of cases without permission probably causes no problem, if the cache setter has an understanding of countryside matters. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks through the location of their cache. Is that a "responsible" attitude?

To tar all landowners (or managers) with the "get off my land" brush is not fair. We all know there are exceptions out there, but (well I would say, wouldn't I) that the majority in my opinion are accepting of "responsible" open access. It is not the people taking "responsible" open access that cause the problems. Equally, it would be unfair for Landowners to tar all access takers as vandalistic yobs yet we all know they are out there too.

Is it that much of an imposition to be courteous and ask someone if there is a problem with a cache location? I am sure there will be many quotes of instances when permission has been refused but what we often do not know is how the person approached the landowner. Not all people are equally diplomatic in their dealings, and that can have an effect on the response!"

But, GC.com says you should ask permission (as discussed in the thread) so don't be surprised if a reviewer will not publish a cache without it.

I am not sure about your last comment? I think it highly unlikely that people are not exercising access rights so they are unlikely to be lost, remember we got along fine in Scotland even before the Act.

Hope this is helpful coming from a land managers view.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Wolf
Founder member


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Carnbroe, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any inferences to the SOAC giving you permission to set up a cache are misguided as it only covers access to the land i.e. it gives you access rights so that you can enter most types of land and to go and search for geocaches but it does not give you the right to use someone else's land for your own use i.e. set up caches, erect advertising, build a house etc

When you place a cache and submit it for publishing you have to indicate that you have read and understand the guidelines for listing a cache which clearly state that:

Fundamental Placement Guidelines
1) All local laws apply.
2) You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property.

i.e. permission is always required.
_________________
www.BigWolf.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Drumin
Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Moray

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I told you we need a can of worms emoticon!

Fundamentally, if you are using GC.com you need the landowner/managers permission, it is in the "Ruelz".

So, hypothetically, if we are talking about placing a cache outwith GC.com rules; personally, I don't think that SOAC is written explicitly enough to rule out the possibility that this form of pursuit is actually covered. See section 2.7 and also what about orienteering which is specifically mentioned and uses "temporary" control points placed on the land? However, most orienteering clubs will ask landowner's permission before running an event, regardless of what permission may be implied under SOAC because they act "responsibly".

The only way to find out if geocaching is specifically covered would be to run a test case at court and get a ruling - that is something we do not want. It is cheaper to just ask permission!

In my opinion, it comes down to acting "responsibly", read section 3 of SOAC which sets out quite well IMHO what responsible means - if read by a reasonable person.

Yours,

Devil's Advocate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agentmancuso
Member


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 20
Location: EK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Is permission really required form landowners in Scotlan Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
It seems to me that permission for placing a cache in Scotland is covered in the Scottish Access Code which allows responsible access to most areas of Scotland. There are obvious exceptions but I would suggest that for all "wild land" in Scotland no permission is necessary. From another section is this site is the quote from SNH which would seem to cover this topic.

"I can confirm therefore that SNH has no concerns at all over the activity and I would very much doubt that you need to contact any land owners."


It's worth remembering that that statement from the SNH was in relation to one specific SSSI area.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firth of Forth
Founder member


Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1493
Location: East Lothian, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the SOAC first came out I wrote to my MSP to enquire about clarification for placing caches. This was referred onto another MSP who wrote back to the effect that permission should be sought to place anything on land.
_________________
Utterly smitten by a Captain
And now Mrs Aubrey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“SOAC is a great thing but I would ask if it is really "responsible" to place a cache if you do not know the implications to someones business of doing so? Let's not forget that access is taken to a working landscape which has to earn an income for the owner in many (“though not all) cases.”

I think that, although landowners use the placing of a cache as being irresponsible, it is actually the cachers who are looking for the cache that are the problem. I could hide thousands of caches on any piece of land and, provided I did not tell anyone, no-one would bother or even be aware of them. Landowners are only concerned about people walking on their land and that is what is allowed in the Scottish Access Code. If you ask permission to place a cache you are really asking permission for people to look for it. The idea of litter or any such thing is nonsense.


”Fundamental Placement Guidelines
1) All local laws apply.
2) You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property.

i.e. permission is always required.”

I think Geocaching started in the USA and we should not be restricted by laws or rules which might work ok in America.
Local laws allows us access to our wild lands which I have a feeling does not apply in America.
I have to also say that “Guidelines” are just as the word says, guidelines, not law.


”It's worth remembering that that statement from the SNH was in relation to one specific SSSI area”

The SNH were very heavily involved in making up the Scottish Access Code. I would be very hard for them to refuse access.
One refusal to allow caching which I would like to be examined more carefully is that of the National Trust for Scotland - Culzean Estate. Unfortunate this sets a precedent which if not addressed can erode all access.

To sum up, believe that it is not the actual placing of a cache that worries landowners but the fact that it encourages other people onto their land to seek the cache. To object to a cache is therefore to restrict access to the land which goes against the access code. I think that if the cache was placed but not published then the landowner would be completely oblivious to its existence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agentmancuso
Member


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 20
Location: EK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
The SNH were very heavily involved in making up the Scottish Access Code. I would be very hard for them to refuse access.


It would actually be quite easy - any spurious pseudo-science about protecting certain species would probably do the trick.


Quote:
I think that if the cache was placed but not published then the landowner would be completely oblivious to its existence.


True. But then so would everyone else, including geocachers, which would make the whole thing rather pointless.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agentmancuso wrote:
drifter wrote:
The SNH were very heavily involved in making up the Scottish Access Code. I would be very hard for them to refuse access.


It would actually be quite easy - any spurious pseudo-science about protecting certain species would probably do the trick.

Actually not true. They used to prohibit canoeing to the islands in Loch Maree because of Black Throated Divers but since they produced the access code they now allow canoeing. They now have even to allow camping on the islands. The access code has made dramatic changes to the way these sort of people behave.


Quote:
I think that if the cache was placed but not published then the landowner would be completely oblivious to its existence.


True. But then so would everyone else, including geocachers, which would make the whole thing rather pointless.


You are missing the point. It is the cache seekers that are perceived as the problem with landowners, not the cache itself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firth of Forth wrote:
When the SOAC first came out I wrote to my MSP to enquire about clarification for placing caches. This was referred onto another MSP who wrote back to the effect that permission should be sought to place anything on land.


Do you believe anything a politician says??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agentmancuso
Member


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 20
Location: EK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
They used to prohibit canoeing to the islands in Loch Maree because of Black Throated Divers but since they produced the access code they now allow canoeing. They now have even to allow camping on the islands. The access code has made dramatic changes to the way these sort of people behave.


That's good. But there are still places where access continues to be restricted on identical grounds, as with some of the St Kilda outliers for example.

Quote:
You are missing the point. It is the cache seekers that are perceived as the problem with landowners, not the cache itself.


No, I'm not missing the point, I just happen to think that having a sense of humour prevents these discussions descending into Radio Phone-In -style bickering.

I agree entirely that when landowners object to a cache being placed their real problem is with the people not the tupperware. But this is strictly irrelevant, because under the SOAC - and the de facto legal position which predates it by many years - they are perfectly entitled to do so, no matter how irritating and unjustifiable this may seem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agentmancuso
Member


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 20
Location: EK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
Do you believe anything a politician says??


Presumably the politicians who created the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 which brought the SOAC into existence are exempt from this dreary populism
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drumin
Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Moray

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely the issue is responsibility.

As I said, the cache setter themselves may not be acting responsibly by setting a cache without permission in an area which then encourages others to take access which may contravene the spirit of responsible access in the code.

Many landowners are only "worried" if the cache is in a location that causes them difficulty in their land management, one of the issues that SOAC set out to address and it is made quite clear in the reading. Asking permission gives them a chance to provide information that could assist in the success of the cache (the reason for access) and avoid problems, surely two of the main reasons for the code's publication?

This could be a very circular discussion (it has been before, elsewhere) and it is down to interpretation on a code which is not written to be anything but a guide, one which works well when interpreted by reasonable people. To get a ruling would require legal process and I suggest that would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

As for the issue of natural heritage legislation versus access legislation, pass me that can o' worms!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Geocaching, more or less All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Create your own free forum now!
Terms of Service Purchase Ad Removal Forum Archive Report Abuse