Is permission really required form landowners in Scotland?
Geo- for grown-ups
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
  GamesGames   

Is permission really required form landowners in Scotland?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Geocaching, more or less
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would seem from the replies that this issue has not really been resolved. Can I ask if we, as the GAGB, are in conversation with Scottish National Heritage to have the matter clarified? If such conversations have taken place what was the result?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lodainn An Ear
Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
It would seem from the replies that this issue has not really been resolved. Can I ask if we, as the GAGB, are in conversation with Scottish National Heritage to have the matter clarified? If such conversations have taken place what was the result?


perhaps best to ask that question on the GAGB forum?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually that is where I got the original message but that post was quite old. I have not received any further interest. It seems that it is being left to individuals to negociate local permissions. Surely it would be better to try to get national recognition. I suppose I could write to SNH myself but it would probably be better coming from some sort of national organisation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firth of Forth
Founder member


Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1493
Location: East Lothian, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is local precedent. I negotiated the placing of a cache on SNH land in North Queensferry with the local ranger. There is information about this somewhere here in a post but I can't find it.
_________________
Utterly smitten by a Captain
And now Mrs Aubrey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lodainn An Ear
Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
I suppose I could write to SNH myself but it would probably be better coming from some sort of national organisation.


the only danger there is that if the national organisation were to fall out with those they are negotiating with then all cachers get tarred with the same brush
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Wolf
Founder member


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Carnbroe, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
It would seem from the replies that this issue has not really been resolved.


The issue is resolved and needs no further debate.

1) The SOAC does not give you permission to place caches on land not belonging to you - it only gives you access to the land, on foot, subject to certain conditions. (its actually the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 which gives you the rights and the SOAC is a code drawn up by SNH (as a requirement of the legislation) to promote the legislation and to define what would is regarded as acting responsibly.)

2) However, irrespective of point 1 above, the land is still owned by someone and in accordance with what geocaching.com require, you still need to get the land owners permission to place a cache on their property.
_________________
www.BigWolf.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The issue is resolved and needs no further debate
.

That sounds very much like the Global Warming issues which we are told are fact and no longer up for depate!

Quote:
1) The SOAC does not give you permission to place caches on land not belonging to you - it only gives you access to the land, on foot, subject to certain conditions.


I think that is because Geocaching was not known about when the Scottish Access code was being drawn up. Were we represented or consulted about the code? Mybe we were... it was before I knew anything about Geocaching. If we had been involved in writing the code then the issue about placing caches would have been resolved.
The code says that you can exercise your rights for recreational purposes (such as pastimes, family and social activities, and more active pursuits like horse riding , cycling , wild camping and taking part in events.
I would like to see Geocaching included in this list and I think that could be achieved if we approached SNH.

I assume that you agree that the actual issue with landowners is not hiding the cache but seeking the cache?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firth of Forth wrote:
There is local precedent. I negotiated the placing of a cache on SNH land in North Queensferry with the local ranger. There is information about this somewhere here in a post but I can't find it.


Yes, I too have permission to place caches on a nature reserve controlled by SNH and I had no trouble getting the permission. It seemed to me that they, having written the access code, are very conscious of "Doing the right thing" which is why I think it would be a good idea to try to get Geocaching mentioned in the code. If it were mentioned along with climbing, walking etc. it would imply that placing caches was acceptable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Wolf
Founder member


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Carnbroe, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drifter wrote:
I assume that you agree that the actual issue with landowners is not hiding the cache but seeking the cache?


The existing Land Reform /SOAC legislation adequately covers finding geocaches as an activity as its recreational and should cause no damage/lasting effect so long as cachers behave responsibly.

The issue is with the hiding of the caches as this is not part of the Land Reform / SOAC legislation and still requires the landowners permission.


Firth of Forth wrote:
If it were mentioned along with climbing, walking etc. it would imply that placing caches was acceptable.


Unfortunately this implication is not correct as the activities mentioned are based on being on the land as it is without any modification. Taking the example of climbing, yes you can go climbing but you can't bring in a 1000 tons of rock to climb on then leave it behind afterwards.
_________________
www.BigWolf.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Unfortunately this implication is not correct as the activities mentioned are based on being on the land as it is without any modification. Taking the example of climbing, yes you can go climbing but you can't bring in a 1000 tons of rock to climb on then leave it behind afterwards.

[/quote]

Not many geocachers taking 1000 tons of rock with them either. Climbers have been known to leave gear behind. Not so much these days with modern climbing techniques, but certainly in the past. They also build cairns. I don't think they ask permission to build cairns!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drumin
Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Moray

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Wolf wrote:

1) The SOAC does not give you permission to place caches on land not belonging to you - it only gives you access to the land, on foot, subject to certain conditions. (its actually the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 which gives you the rights and the SOAC is a code drawn up by SNH (as a requirement of the legislation) to promote the legislation and to define what would is regarded as acting responsibly.)


I find it surprising that you can be so definite in your statements when the evidence to date of cases taken to court and the rulings determined seems to suggest that the Code is open to interpretation and legal judgment. It is not directly relevant to this discussion but look at the convolutions of Tuley vs Highland Council.

It is surely an equally valid interpretation to say that placing a cache is an integral part of a pursuit or pastime and therefore is allowable under the Act given guidance by the Code. I put the case, before, of Orienteering which requires the installation of temporary control points on the land which requires participants to search for them and is specifically mentioned in the Code.

In legal debate it would be a persuasive argument to use this as a comparison but, as I said, we really do not want to go there as the only people who win in these cases are lawyers.

Yours,

Still playing Devil's Advocate

Your point 2 still applies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firth of Forth
Founder member


Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1493
Location: East Lothian, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to stir the pot further but branch out a little...

We gave up trying to get an earthcache published some time ago (in which, as you all know, nothing is placed on the land) because one of the reasons it was rejected was that we needed evidence of permission from the landowner (in this case the local council who actively encourage access to the particular location). We didn't think it worth the effort in the end to persist in explanations.

I really don't understand the need for permission in such a case.
_________________
Utterly smitten by a Captain
And now Mrs Aubrey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
agentmancuso
Member


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 20
Location: EK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firth of Forth wrote:
I don't want to stir the pot further but branch out a little...

We gave up trying to get an earthcache published some time ago (in which, as you all know, nothing is placed on the land) because one of the reasons it was rejected was that we needed evidence of permission from the landowner (in this case the local council who actively encourage access to the particular location). We didn't think it worth the effort in the end to persist in explanations.

I really don't understand the need for permission in such a case.


That certainly looks like a failure on the part of Geocaching authorities to make allowances for access law in Scotland.

Unfortunately, in other less enlightened parts of the world, legal ownership of land is dolled up in all sorts of black magic. Crying or Very sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Wolf
Founder member


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Carnbroe, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following Drumins comments, playing Devil's Advocates can of course take place in both directions.

All of the photos below are active and approved geocaches and I have added the links back to the cache pages for you to check for yourself.

So what you are saying is that the SOAC lets you wander up to someones elses property and permits you to leave large unsightly boxes and abandon cars all over the countryside and when this happens the landowner can't object and has no recourse as geocaches can be left without permission on any land and when this happens Groundspeak will protect you as you placed the cache in accordance with their requirements?

Ok, so these may be extreme examples but they are all valid geocaches so these must be ok to leave if geocaches are allowable under the SOAC.

So if you do speak to SNH make sure they are aware of what a geocache can look like so that they are fully informed of what they are letting themselves in for if they include 'no permission from the landowner is required when placing a geocache' into the SOAC.

The comparison with orienteering check points is misguided as the check points are removed after the event has ended whereas caches have to be there on a continuing basis day and night.

Its a regular cache so whats the issue just walking up and leaving a container designed to hold high explosive bullets in your local park? GC1HPK0



or this one GC17EBG



or why not turn the countryside into a scrap yard with loads of these containers every 161 meters? The hint of course is 'under rock' GCGNET


_________________
www.BigWolf.co.uk


Last edited by Big Wolf on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:47 pm; edited 22 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
drifter
Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firth of Forth wrote:
I don't want to stir the pot further but branch out a little...

We gave up trying to get an earthcache published some time ago (in which, as you all know, nothing is placed on the land) because one of the reasons it was rejected was that we needed evidence of permission from the landowner (in this case the local council who actively encourage access to the particular location). We didn't think it worth the effort in the end to persist in explanations.

I really don't understand the need for permission in such a case.


Probably the reason is that the reviewer is strictly applying the rules or perhaps he is not aware of the Access Code.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Geocaching, more or less All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Create your own free forum now!
Terms of Service Purchase Ad Removal Forum Archive Report Abuse