Challenge procedure topic #001
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Challenge procedure topic #001

 
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gxadmin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Challenge procedure topic #001 Reply with quote

Two members have raised objections to a post dated 10/2/08 15.20hrs in this thread.

The objections are to tone and content. The accuracy of a statement that other (unspecified) cachers have left, or are about to leave, the hobby as a result of the actions of others (implied to be members of this forum) has been contested.

There is also an allegation that the same poster is attempting to generate and support the same argument by postings on other discussion boards - something which, if proven, would be a very serious matter.

"Beer Master" has seven (7) days in which to supply evidence that his assertion above is true. (An email from the cacher(s) mentioned to Admins, or a verifiable posting to this thread by them, would do it.)

Failing this, the offending posting (and any quoted extracts thereof) will be deleted from the original thread.

Members should note that this "challenge" topic is NOT repeat NOT a replacement for the original, and discussion of whether bad caches should attract critical logs (or otherwise) is irrelevant here. Please confine postings to specific information about the complaint(s).


Regards,

GxAdmin


Last edited by gxadmin on Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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skinnymalinky
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been following the thread with dismay.

Yob Kulcha's comments are measured and polite. He does not mention the name of the caches but gives examples of bad locations, as part of a debate about whether to draw attention to a poor location to warn other cachers. The implication of Beer Master that he is responsible for the Cache Hider leaving geocaching is incredibly insulting.

The logs for one cache include several comments that the location is dangerous, including one by Beermaster himself "This road can be used by a lot of HGV's tearing past at speed going to local industrial estates and council landfill area. Be careful of the traffic.Not suitable for kids/dogs as a result", and another Beermaster quote for a different cache"Be advised that the cache is located in a dumping ground and a lot of undesireable things are at hand. Take care if you decide to search(would wear strong gloves) and keep kids away as there is a steep drop onto piles of rubble/rubbish etc". I do not think there is any doubt that these caches were not in good locations.

I cannot understand how the comments on this forum can be considered as inflammatory as Beermaster implies. His comments did rather come out of the blue - I can only assume that there must have been private communications as well. However it is no excuse for the public rudeness directed at the whole group "As a result of people sitting on there(sic) high horse this family of cachers have left caching altogether , and who can blame them!!!!." and "SO ,why don't you all just get a grip , deal with your insecurities and let new cachers learn in a constructive way".

Anyway, I am deeply upset on behalf of Yob Kulcha and as a member of this forum feel that BeerMaster has indeed insulted us all with his tone. As to the content of his claim, whilst we are not privy to discussions elsewhere, I fail to see anything on this forum which could cause the Cache Hider to leave geocaching.
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Haggis Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to make a reply on the thread, as I was so angry with Beer Masters written tone and comments. I decided not to as it may have just inflamed the situation more.

I am not one of the people who made the complaint, but I stand by the complainants wholeheartedly.

As for the Geofrees comment. We must remember that this forum came about due to the disgust of how cachers where treated on Geofrees (no need to say any more).
Beer Master is the first person to have our moderation system tested. That in itself should send a message saying how offensive his comments have been.
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arock&ahardplace
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's not much I can add. skinnymalinky and Haggis Hunter have taken words right out of my mouth. Like HH, I am not one of the complaintants, but I totally agree with them. I already said my piece on the other thread, so I will leave it at that here.
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Firth of Forth
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beermaster may have a valid point. Unfortunately, IMHO, the way he has expressed it has taken away whatever value it may have had. If he is upset by comments that people (whoever they are) have made elsewhere, then he should take it up with them personally by email etc. There is nothing that has been said in this forum that warranted his negative and inflammatory posts, which appear to be directed at all of us here.

It's a pity that it has come to testing out our challenge process; but at least we have managed to avoid having recourse to this process for the 18 months or so of the life of this forum.
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Jacobite
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can comfirm that I am one of the members who have initiated the challenge process regarding
remarks Beer Master has made on this forum. I have evidence in support of my claim that
he has made a false statement in regards to the family in question leaving the hobby for good,
and shall be forwarding that evidence to Admin for consideration regarding my challenge.

I have tried, and now it seems, failed, to come to some understanding with Beer Master
regarding his comments on this forum. It seems that my plea to him, to talk in a calm and
rational manner have fallen on deaf ears, with his continued abusive remarks about myself and
others being posted on other public websites.
I refuse to be taregeted in this fashion, and consequently feel that I have no other option,
than to publicly challenge Beer Master's statements made on this forum.

Aly and I have given the family in question our full support, and look forward to their continued
participation within the geocaching community. My only regret is that further public scrutiny of
the family will have a detrimental effect on them, the blame for which, I place squarely on the
shoulders of one highly motivated indivdual.

Thank you for considering my part of this challenge.
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Jack Aubrey
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very much regret that we have had to invoke this procedure. We have managed to conduct a civilised and adult exchange of views with no moderation for quite some time and I hope we can quickly return to that. This is a space I much value for just that quality of freedom which the members, conscious of their collective interest and individual value, do not allow to become mere licence. I can remember only one occasion in the history of this forum in which objections were raised and it was much to the credit of the original poster that he or she reconsidered and edited the original material to remove potentially offensive elements without undermining the essential point of the initial remarks.

I am not a challenger in this case; indeed, I have to confess that I only skim read the exchanges which have given rise to the challenge as they appeared on the forum. Not the sort of thing I wanted to spend any time on. I was tempted to offer an alternative "just too silly and boring to be worth challenging" procedure. But then I thought I might get challenged..... Wink
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Jacobite
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been more than seven days?
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gxadmin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacobite wrote:
It's been more than seven days?



Yes it has.

Both the admins - for different and unrelated reasons - have a number of pressing matters to deal with. We apologise to the membership for the delay in addressing this matter, and hope to catch up to it within the next couple of days.

Your patience is appreciated.




-GxAdmin
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Haggis Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am posting my reply to this thread here as I belive it is relevant to this topic.

parkmoy wrote:
I find it interesting that Beermaster was challenged for his posting on the Best & Worst of 2007. I understand from the thread that there postings on other forums to which I am not privy but surely they are irrelevant to this forum.


A while ago I complained about a certain individual several times to Lactodorum and Eckington about the postings on the main GC forums. This person was making personal attacks towards me, but doing it by using several different ways and delivering the final punch on the forum. Laccy & Ecky had their hands tied, as to the unknown eye you couldn't see the attack. I am pleased that GeoX Admin have taken the decision to take other postings on other forums into account.

Believe me, until you are a victim you won't know what it feels like. So I personally do think it is relevant.
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parkmoy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am posting my reply to this thread here as I belive it is relevant to this topic.


I think it's quite rude to unilaterally decide where another member should post.
I have given my reasons why I do not agree with your belief on my original posting and a reply to your comments.
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Haggis Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

parkmoy wrote:
Quote:
I am posting my reply to this thread here as I belive it is relevant to this topic.


I think it's quite rude to unilaterally decide where another member should post.
I have given my reasons why I do not agree with your belief on my original posting and a reply to your comments.


Please accept my apologies. As you have explained since my post, I now realise that it is a different topic and not a continuation of this one. An easy mistake to make!
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parkmoy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Please accept my apologies. As you have explained since my post, I now realise that it is a different topic and not a continuation of this one. An easy mistake to make!


Fully accepted, on reflection, I should have made myself clearer.
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yob kulcha
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skinnymalinky wrote:

Anyway, I am deeply upset on behalf of Yob Kulcha and as a member of this forum feel that BeerMaster has indeed insulted us all with his tone.


That's very kind of you but I'm not even a teensy wee bit upset. I'll stand by what I posted here and in the cache pages and if anyone wants to debate it with me then I'm all for it.

Beermaster's comments were so vague that I'm not even sure he was directly referring to me anyway. In fact I'm sure he can't be since, after my comments on the caches in question, the cachesetter sent me an apologetic email. I in turn apologised for my harsh words, explained my reasons and gave some tips. The reply I received was:

"Not a problem.

Don't give up on us !!"

So, I'm sure that Beermaster, having such a close friendship with the cachesetter, will be quite aware of our amicable exchange.

P.S. I have a copy of the full email exchange if Admin needs it.
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gxadmin
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, thanks to the membership for their patience in waiting for this to be dealt with.


Under the "challenge" scheme, BM had a set period in which to provide supporting material that the statement(s) made by him were true. Despite extra time afforded by unfortunate delays, no such attempt has been made and therefore the challenge succeeds by default.

The question is: what to do now?

GxAdmin2 has suggested that the entire original thread should be deleted. For my own part, although I am against wholesale deletion of threads on principle, in this case I think that GxAdmin2 is right. The topic itself, though intentionally controversial from the outset, contained no technical or other caching resource. Nor did it add anything to the development of GeoX as a forum, except perhaps in a way that I, as the OP in my membership persona, did not fully expect.

The topic will be deleted in its entirety, with this note remaining here as an explanation of what happened to it.


GxAdmin.
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